Curse

Rajamic · Jan 24, 2006, 09:54 AM // 09:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Temple Strike is an excellent skill and it shines in places like the arenas where you're usually going 1v1 with a monk, where the disruption from the daze is outstanding, and your target is generally unlikely to get healing or protection from an outside source. It's similarly good in the longer skill chains that you can get away with in arena for many of the same reasons. That Temple Strike is so good in 4-man has done a lot for its popularity. But that success is not neccessarily going to translate into 8-man formats, where multiple monks minimizes the effectiveness of a single, short term daze. I'm not saying it's going to be bad there, but it won't be as exceptional as it is in the arenas.

I've been thinking about this, and I'm still a bit concerned that Temple will still, at the very least, cause GvG to start using 3-Monk teams. It seems to me that a team with 2 Warrior + Assassin w/Temple Strike teams would be able to fairly easily kill any 2 monk backline in seconds. It would take a good portion of your team to do. But at the same time, it would essentially be spiking the monks without being weak against splits the way spike teams usually are. Or just run 2 Assassins with one teamed with a Warrior to shut them both down long enough to kill one.

Any comments on this from the GvG experts (which I definitely am not)? If that doesn't seem plausable, then it really isn't a threat at all in 8-Man, and will just end up like a lot of other skills/builds that only work when the skill slots are in more limited supply.

tafy69 · Jan 24, 2006, 09:57 AM // 09:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rajamic

I've been thinking about this, and I'm still a bit concerned that Temple will still, at the very least, cause GvG to start using 3-Monk teams. It seems to me that a team with 2 Warrior + Assassin w/Temple Strike teams would be able to fairly easily kill any 2 monk backline in seconds. It would take a good portion of your team to do. But at the same time, it would essentially be spiking the monks without being weak against splits the way spike teams usually are. Or just run 2 Assassins with one teamed with a Warrior to shut them both down long enough to kill one.

Any comments on this from the GvG experts (which I definitely am not)? If that doesn't seem plausable, then it really isn't a threat at all in 8-Man, and will just end up like a lot of other skills/builds that only work when the skill slots are in more limited supply.

i can see daze being very usefull in gvg split builds, but there is an obvious counter.

Boon + cop

glountz · Jan 24, 2006, 10:24 AM // 10:24

I used personnally Mantis+TEmple+Twisted in 4v4 arenas.
With zodiac and zealous of course.
DEadly. If I managed to link those on a guy, I used frenzy just after, either to interrupt ultra faster or to finish the warrior while he was missing me.
Used lotus method for chain starter as well as energy management.
I think temple is a bit overpowered, not because it applies dazed, but because it applies dazed AND blind, so it is useful against any opponent in the game (it's amazing that you are only concerned about dazed and not blind which the ranger's and warrior's -and now assassin's greater pain).
Twisted is not, because it is a dual attack, you have great odds you never manage to place it, and its cost is something you have to deal with.
As it is a topic on dual attacks, it says that dagger mastery allow you to place dual attacks instead of regular attacks.
I had 16 Dagger mastery (32% chances of dual attacks) and did never saw anything like double damage.
Bad luck, or too subtil effect?

makii · Jan 24, 2006, 04:48 PM // 16:48

i used wit a/r apply poison, perfect weapon(bleeding), and critical eye, for buff
for attack i had was all 3 disrupting skills wich gived enemy: bleeding, poison,blind,daze and crippling= all dead! only warriors were 2 strong, did 2 much dmg(axe). for def i had troll, dryders def for 8 sec. and rez.
that was actually the strongest build that u could make in event! im sure of it! ive beated EVERY assasin i faced! EVERY! even 3 at once!
some can take milandrus, its very usefull against assasins.

glountz · Jan 24, 2006, 05:53 PM // 17:53

*sigh*

Phades · Jan 24, 2006, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Temple Strike is an excellent skill and it shines in places like the arenas where you're usually going 1v1 with a monk, where the disruption from the daze is outstanding, and your target is generally unlikely to get healing or protection from an outside source. It's similarly good in the longer skill chains that you can get away with in arena for many of the same reasons. That Temple Strike is so good in 4-man has done a lot for its popularity. But that success is not neccessarily going to translate into 8-man formats, where multiple monks minimizes the effectiveness of a single, short term daze. I'm not saying it's going to be bad there, but it won't be as exceptional as it is in the arenas.

Considering it is similar to using blackout or a gale chain to lock one target out, then combine it with the ability to teleport to the intended target, i dont see how a ~8s shutdown on each monk will not be that effective. Between that and shroud of silence, i cant imagine how CoP will not be on every monk's bar. Granted, gale and blackout are more difficult to compensate for, but the parity is not that far off.

Ensign · Jan 24, 2006, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rajamic

I've been thinking about this, and I'm still a bit concerned that Temple will still, at the very least, cause GvG to start using 3-Monk teams. It seems to me that a team with 2 Warrior + Assassin w/Temple Strike teams would be able to fairly easily kill any 2 monk backline in seconds.

I understand the concern, but honestly this won't change things too much from the way they are right now. A team of 3 Gale Warriors can stunlock a Monk for a good 20 seconds or so while they all beat on him. Two Warriors and a Temple Striker would be an 8 second shutdown (or close to it), though it's a bit less reliable - need to have cripple and daze and all that stick and that can be tricky when the brunt of the opponent's defenses are all being thrown at your target. Basically the Gale Jail is stronger, but two Warriors and a Temple Striker is comparable and doesn't require the same overhead, so I'd expect it to be popular.

Sticking a Temple Striker on an off-Monk, at least on paper, is comparable to a Hammer Warrior that would previously have that kind of job - the Assassin is front loaded so he can run over at any time, the Hammer has to charge adrenaline on an off target, but knocklocks are stronger. The job is still the same, disable for a short time (via knocklock or daze), and apply pressure while doing so. Temple Strike recharges more quickly than the knocklocks so that's another plus.

If you just want to disable the Monk without the pressure, you're better off just having a Domination Mesmer sit on his face during a spike.

So I guess the best way to put it is that Temple Strike is comparable to the existing options, and does have a place, but it certainly isn't about to revolutionize GvG.

Honestly the thing that lets you get away with a two Monk backline these days is Boonprots. Those give you the flexibility that you need from your monks, with 'enough' healing to get by, and they're much more resilient to shutdown (RoF / Draw / Prot Spirit / CoP / Boon all fight Daze, Migraine, and knocklocks reasonably). If you want to run more traditional backline characters (Word guys and Boonprots), you absolutely need block stances on both of your Monks, and a whole lot of shutdown to keep them from just getting obliterated.

I'll tell you this much, though - when I see a team with a boonprot and a healer, I smash the prot first, because there's no way for a healer to keep up with the kinds of damage being dished out these days without turning into an infuse turret, and, well, you can punish that. =)

Peace,
-CxE

<EDIT>

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Palm Strike never misses, is extremely fast, and sets up your target for Eviscerate, I mean Twisted Fangs. For a quick finisher on a target of opportunity, it's exactly what you want. I would not be surprised at all if it ended up being the elite of choice for 8-man Assassins.

I've had a change of heart about this skill since last night. If you just want an Eviscerate, and want to use your Elite slot to get it, just use Eviscerate. Twisting Fangs is good, but it's Sever/Gash, something that you'll use as an alternative to Eviscerate because want a different elite on that character (usually "Charge!" for a sword Warrior, perhaps Temple Strike for an Assassin). In any case I no longer think that Palm Strike will be that hot, because that character just looks like a bad Axe Warrior. It might see some fringe use if a build needs an assassin but not an assassin elite for some reason, but it certainly won't be mainstream. Assassins will be run for Temple Strike, maybe Shadow Shroud, or something that makes them a distinct character with a specialized job in any case.

LaserLight · Jan 24, 2006, 08:52 PM // 20:52

All good stuff there. I have to admit that Temple got my attention the first time I went through the Assassin skills and Palm Strike didn't. I just wanted to make sure that people didn't rip unnecessarily on a skill that really does deserve its Elite tag. After all, a Palm Strike->Twisting Fangs Hits for Palm's 50~ damage then lays on Twisting Fang meanness, with virtually no worry of missing the chain halfway through. For Assassins looking to use a good number of their quirky supporting skills while retaining an effective attack, that would be the ticket.

Still, the whole kil-da-munk thing is an issue, but I wonder what replacing that third backline Monk with a Ritualist would do for everyone's calulations. Short of stripping away the Spirits altogether, there's no effective way to pressure Ritualist healing into self-preservation mode, and if things get stuck doo deep in the muck, a Ritualist threatened by a pressure build, or a Ritualist looking to protect the Monks being smacked by the entire offensive arm of the enemy Guild, could start Rupturing all his Spirits. If your guys are caught in the thick of a spirit forest, say goodbye to your offensive arm. Especially with both a healing-oriented and a damage, oriented Ritualist spawning both sets of Spirits on the field. That could end up as well over a thousand potential AoE spike damage in the form of big glowy creature-shaped bombs.

dorn · Jan 24, 2006, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Still don't see why there is not 1 elite dual attack. Moebius Strike is probly the worst elite they have. You have to do a full chain minimum of 3 hits which is hard enough to do normally. Then you have to hit with a 4th attack, have the energy for it, and after it recharges your skills you have no energy to spam another combo.

I think if you had switched your skills around you would of been singing a different tune. The basic template they setup is horrible but if you use the hex that gives 10 energy for a dual hit instead of that stupid stance hex I think you would of found that getting off the whole chain isn't all that unlikely. With 4 pips energy regen the worst that happened usually is I had to change targets several times till I could catch someone without enough defenses to stop the chain. Not to mention there were several skills that couldn't be evaded or blocked if you looked at the skill list. You could make the whole chain unevadeable right up to Moebius Strike if you wanted too. There were even skills to make offhand/dual attacks free energy. It might seem hard to use but when you can install kill a monk during 3s of knockdown from nearly full health it needs to be hard to use.

LaserLight · Jan 24, 2006, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Unevadeable doesn't mean unavoidable. I know the skills you're talking about, and they can't hit through Blind any more than Twisting Fangs can. They can hit through block/evasion stances, yeah, but when Factions and its Assassins hits, we're gonna be seeing a few less evade stances and a lot more Blind. In which case, you'd want yer Elite to either be something that could hit through BLind (like Palm) or something worth trying to hit through Blind (like Temple).

Really, the only reason Moebius Strike is Elite is because it's apparently Anet's policy to make any instant recharger skill an Elite.

twicky_kid · Jan 24, 2006, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I've had a change of heart about this skill since last night. If you just want an Eviscerate, and want to use your Elite slot to get it, just use Eviscerate. Twisting Fangs is good, but it's Sever/Gash, something that you'll use as an alternative to Eviscerate because want a different elite on that character (usually "Charge!" for a sword Warrior, perhaps Temple Strike for an Assassin). In any case I no longer think that Palm Strike will be that hot, because that character just looks like a bad Axe Warrior. It might see some fringe use if a build needs an assassin but not an assassin elite for some reason, but it certainly won't be mainstream. Assassins will be run for Temple Strike, maybe Shadow Shroud, or something that makes them a distinct character with a specialized job in any case.

Don't be so quick to go back on that Ensign. Assassins have some powerful hexes and dagger throwing skills. The have more vesatility than a warrior can ever hope for just from their primary class. Using 2 skills slots for a spike is very well worth the space. Using death's charge or other shadow steps you can stay in the backlines and add support then tele to target to spike. Retreat after target is dead.

SShhhh.....don't hint that twisted needs to be an elite. I like the skill never complained about it. Just saying the other dual attacks should be comparable or some what near it.

ElderAtronach · Jan 25, 2006, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Twisting fangs is a nice standalone spike dual attack, but if you're on a team with an axe war running Eviscerate, it seems really bleh. If you're spiking the same target as the Eviscerate guy, I would much rather use Death Blossom. At 16 dagger mastery it does +24 or +26, I'm not exactly sure. It adds that to both hits on the dual attack. Plus it's only 5 energy so you are more likely to have enough energy to pull it off as compared to twisting fangs.

twicky_kid · Jan 25, 2006, 01:52 AM // 01:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElderAtronach

Twisting fangs is a nice standalone spike dual attack, but if you're on a team with an axe war running Eviscerate, it seems really bleh. If you're spiking the same target as the Eviscerate guy, I would much rather use Death Blossom. At 16 dagger mastery it does +24 or +26, I'm not exactly sure. It adds that to both hits on the dual attack. Plus it's only 5 energy so you are more likely to have enough energy to pull it off as compared to twisting fangs.

That's the beauty of twisted fangs. You are no longer restricted to running Evicserate on your warrior. With more skills coming for core classes I can't wait to see what new sword adrenaline skills we get. Hopefully a new sword elite. I don't think you can get much better than eviscerate for an axe elite.

From what we have right now I have a build in my head of a degen pressure build using the assassin to pick off the weakest target from the backlines with shadow step then recall back to prevent overextending

Going to be some fun times ahead.

LaserLight · Jan 25, 2006, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Hm hm...god I love it when intelligent people hold an intelligent discussion :-P.

Anyways. When I was unlocking skills, I unlocked Death Blossom as well, and can say that if you're not wanting to run Twisting Fangs (God knows why), or need a second dual attack on yer skill bar, it's pretty much the dual of choice. Stuff like Nine Tail Strike, Dancing Blades, and various others just don't compare to Death Blossom's punch. It doesn't give the Bleeding and Deep Wound that Twsiting Fangs does, but makes up for it with raw punch. Unsuspecting->Palm Strike (or Jungle, if you use Caltrops beforehand)->Death Blossom is worth a great deal of quick spiking damage.

The way Assassins are set up, I'm forseeing them living up to their class name in most GvG builds. Their battlefield mobility and heavy spiking makes them perfect for siccing on a single, vital target in order to cause some chaos. If you wanted an attacking Elite like Temple Strike or the ever useful Shroud of Silence, then run those, your skill stream, Death's Charge to get to your target, and then use Spirit Walk, targeted on one of your own team's Spirits, to escape again. Wait for recharge, then find the next squishy and exterminate.

What I think we're going to be seeing a lot of is W/A axemen using the Assassin teleportation skills to get to targets suddenly rendered even more helpless to escape. A Death's Charge/Shadow Refuge Eviscerator, or similar, could operate pretty damn well as a maverick unit. Or even a W/A just making use of Warrior armor to bolster Dagger attacks, though that would take a bit of work.

Hm hm...these teleportation skills are really, really gonna screw with the current PvP balancing. I really have no clue what the guys saying that Assassins are going to be PvP nonfactors are talking about.

ODAR · Jan 25, 2006, 07:01 AM // 07:01

Hi there!
Good posts. I used attribute line of deadly arts or something like that. There's an hex that makes your attacks unavoidable for 8 sec at medium attribute points, and has recharge 10 sec (all time usable if enough energy in pool).
I used this hex, mantis, off-hand that does more damage on crippled and the dual with 2 conditions. This with victory is mine (elite) that supplies me with energy/heal and zealous weapon go well in random arena at least.
Matter is i use 3 attribute lines and have nothing to put in criticals.
What do you think of this build?

twicky_kid · Jan 25, 2006, 07:31 AM // 07:31

I think assassins are going to have to choose in some ways. Upping daggers gives you double strike but doesn't enhance criticals. Upping critical has a little energy managment built in.

A critical attack is = to 65% penetration. Used calculator vs 60 armor till I hit 33 dmg which is avg for critical dmg on a normal swing. Add in +dmg from skill to calculate skill's dmg. With critical eye and max critical you can get a 22% chance to critical.

Putting points into daggers is like other weapons. To get listed dmg you have to be at least 12 otherwise you are doing less than the weapon's dmg no matter what the req is. At max with locust's fury you can get a 52% chance to double strike.

If you split the points 10/12 will give you a 10c/20ds. Baseline daggers at 12 so you get listed dmg. Spread the extra points where you need them.

I think this attribute spread will be very key for assassins when fitting them to a role. Req a lot more planning than a warrior that's for sure.

Solais · Jan 25, 2006, 01:05 PM // 13:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

As it is a topic on dual attacks, it says that dagger mastery allow you to place dual attacks instead of regular attacks.
I had 16 Dagger mastery (32% chances of dual attacks) and did never saw anything like double damage.
Bad luck, or too subtil effect?

Were you looking to see the damage from an attack doubled? Or checking to see if the assassin swung twice?

I saw myself swing twice a great deal of the time, and lots of times one of those would crit.

I've gotta agree with everyone else, Twisting Fangs was my dual attack of choice for the weekend. The only other dual attack I used was Horns of the Ox, which when someone was alone it'd knock down... setting up for Falling Spider > Twisting Fangs. Bleeding and Deep Wound was too good, especially since you're right there swinging away to capitalize on the conditions until they're dealt with. The high damage bonus and poison from Falling Spider just became icing on the cake.

With Expose Defenses and Shroud of Shadows making sure people couldn't avoid the attacks without help, my R/A had lots of fun on Sunday.

I don't know if it was more fun tripping people with Scorpion Wire and then doing Falling Spider > Twisting Fangs.... but it ran very close.